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The DAT People's Choice Question of the Week: Stature
The DAT People's Choice Question of the Week:
 
Are the show ring and classification 'getting the job done' de-emphasizing stature?
 
Please leave your comments below. 
Reader Comments
Comments posted do not express the viewpoint of Dairy Agenda Today or its staff members.
old timer
November, 27 2017
To Just Facts-I was always under the impression that the “True Type” model represented the kind of cow that had the proper balance between strength and dairyness to allow the cow to produce at a high level and still be healthy, fertile and long lived? For the vast majority of the bulls that sire today’s high type cows, that couldn’t be further from the truth. As previously stated, maybe the Doorman and McCutchen influence can change that but my guess is that the classifiers will remain in love with tall and skinny for some time.
OLDSTER
November, 25 2017
Re 'breeding the type the judges want"...When judges are selected by the people who show cattle, you're not going to change the format very fast. Style points rule the showring, but a commercial dairyman loves the cows that don't need attention, period. #1 trait? she has to walk on concrete, and its a fine line between style and frail. As a good dairyman said to me about a certain judge, "he likes them too hungry for me."
just facts
November, 25 2017
I have classified cows for 40 years and have never known it was the classifiers job to measure anything other than conformation in accordance with the true type model. It seems that some people like to blame them for things they don't have anything to do with. I guess you can blame the AI industry for not measuring and paying attention to health traits before it became a problem but it certainly was not the classifiers responsibility.
Bottom Line
November, 25 2017
The bottom line in the future of Holstein genetics will evolve around feed efficiency and longevity, those are the traits that drive profitability on dairy farms. Every 100 lbs of body weight requires and additional lb of dry matter intake for maintenance alone. All the health traits are ways to look inside of longevity and help us be more accurate in evaluating it, SCC, fertility etc. The question is, will the show ring and type evaluation help us accelerate feed efficiency, longevity and profitability or hold us back?
Benny
November, 24 2017
Doorman Fan- many true breeders didn't use Durham early on because he was an Elton son, nobody could believe the cross Elton x Mark could be so consistent.Just saying!!
OLDSTER
November, 24 2017
Of course, they can be too tall...just make them wide on both ends. With the price of milk going in this downward swirl, we might have to start selecting for "grades choice" genomics.
newton wiley
November, 24 2017
I think we will all agree that we do not need 65+inch cows! however i also do not think we can not hold it against them, they were bred that way!!! Show ring or classification My thoughts are that we can not credit nor discredit cows just on size!I feel cows like TEQUILA-RED an DOOR CAMILLA are getting beat up just a bit for being extreme! Change is coming, an needs to start in my opinion with calf classes an like all things will take time.
Tony Whitehead
November, 24 2017
Great comment Chris. It's too bad we don't have guys like you talking for us more. Holstein has worked on this. Successful?? I think it depends on the classifier and the farm they are on.
Just Sayin
November, 24 2017
Old Timer, I couldn't agree with you more! You hit the nail on the head!
Doorman Fan
November, 24 2017
Old Timer-Doorman was just recognized by Holstein as the leading sire of females that stood in the top 3 at the 2017 National Shows. While he is not a great health improver, he is OK -.03 fertility index, +2.6 PL, 2.53 scc and +feed efficiency. Much like his ¾ brother McCutchen whose son Kingboy is transmitting high type with good health. Those who get their Atwoods, Absolutes, Sids, and Braxtons pregnant, could get Doorman milking daughters pregnant with sexed semen. So maybe Doorman and McCutchen can turn the curve on high type vs acceptable health, Who would have thought that a bull sired by a Planet son from a Ramos dam could sire show ring type??
old timer
November, 23 2017
It seems to be politically correct to beat the tallest one in a class if you can find a reason to do it, so the stature issue is coming around. When we first started evaluating daughter fertility, one wondered if we could get high production and good fertility in the same package, well we selected for it and we got it. Then we wondered if we could get high type and good daughter fertility in the same package and after we selected for it, we have bulls like Doc who is over 4 on type, +1.7 on fertility index and over 1500 milk and good components. My question is, can we create bulls who will sire daughters that can win Expo and have good health traits. I am afraid that if they sire the kind of dairyness the show ring judges require, they won't sire good health?
Cardinal Red
November, 22 2017
AMEN FLASH !!
Md-Hillbrook
November, 22 2017
In these times In our industry I say if it it's profitable for you , you do it ! Not a thing in the world wrong with a little cow that breeds back every year and makes 3000lbs and 1200Fat . Not a thing wrong with a 60-62 inch Queen either ! There is room for everybody folks.Instead of yacking at one another over show cows vs genomic cows, or big vs small ? why don't we all just come together and strive to fix the real problem ... Milk marketing , price gouging and people in suits that do absolutely nothing but drive to the bank .
old timer
November, 22 2017
To those haters of “down-hill, tight ribbed, bulgy, basketball uddered genomic eye sores” you need to get in your truck and go see some Mogul, Montross, Delta, Josuper, Yoder or Kingboy daughters just to name a few! Go see them in a herd of several hundred that is averaging well over 30,000 milk with good components that is getting 1.8 lbs of milk per lb of dry matter! Just go see them! Good chance the herd doesn’t score because the classifiers still insist that tall and dairy is what the breed needs.
John Conrad
November, 21 2017
I think we are seeing a little less emphasis on stature but classifiers still like them big and so do judges. Classifiers have always liked balanced cows with good udders regardless of how big they are. They are never going to like these down-hill, round-ribbed small cows with bulgy udders. Neither do I.
My thoughts
November, 21 2017
Show ring will always want them tall - that will never change. Classification - its funny the way the association changes the system to make the short, round, basketball udder genomic cows try to look better under the classification score. They still look the same. Eye sores. You can keep them. They will never be part of my world.
Adam W
November, 20 2017
If you are referring to the bull delta then I'm confused. I don't know anyone that is using Delta expecting to win a show, county fair or 4-H judging contest . I also don't know anyone expecting a EX-90 pt 3 or 4 year old cow either. If your bull selection is genomic Bulls that take strength , stature and width away but add GTPI and net merit then why are you classifying??? Save the money!! Some genomic bull mothers aren't even 80 pts! The GTPI is your "classification score" Not being mean just my opinion . I'm just tired of people complaining about stature and then saying the use bulls like Mccutchen !! He makes them tall people! Use Bulls like delta and you'll be happier I have used Bulls like supersire, mogul etc but I knew what I was going to get!
2far
November, 20 2017
I believe judges have gone too far, being tall is good, just not too narrow or skinny, or BAD LEGS. In classification cows still need to be too tall and skinny to be very good or excellent not the modern cows like the Deltas