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The DAT People's Choice Question of the Week: Still an Opportunity?
At one time many breeders of registered dairy cattle were able to generate substantial amounts of revenue from two sources of income, sale of milk and sale of registered cattle, embryos, bulls.

Is there still an opportunity for many registered dairy cattle breeders to earn substantial income (30% of milk sales or higher) with the sale of registered cattle, embryos, bulls?
Reader Comments
Comments posted do not express the viewpoint of Dairy Agenda Today or its staff members.
Ronald Flatness
March, 8 2021
Big appetite, high productiuon! What we noticed the 1st time we used a high production bull like..Bell, They eat all the time and milked like crazy. like nothing we had seen before.I housed one, a contract cow out here in Pa..was springing was not fed enough. So hungry she was try to eat from the next cows feed and broke her neck trying..Never talked to that SOB again! Many ex-dairymen house a few cows out at a friends..some some end well, some terrible.
OLDSTER
March, 7 2021
Barb, the shovel and wheelbarrow made us have to clean gutters twice/day, till we went freestalls! They gotta eat if they're gwanna produce..feed in, milk and manure out. The breeding got better, but so did the feed going into them. Just loved those dry cows!!
Barb
March, 7 2021
For me feed efficiency was easily measured years ago when I cleaned out behind my cows every morning with my pitchfork and wheelbarrow. No AI people or professors ever came to ask me which cows made the least manure and which bulls they were sired by. Asking those questions back then would have made a lot of difference today. The daughters of one of the most popular bulls in AI had the most manure behind them and were the dirtiest cows in the barn!
Tony Whitehead
March, 7 2021
There is a difference between heratabilty and inheretated traits. It's been awhile since I staggered into a lecture hall. It's still hard to lose money on a good cow.
Ronald Flatness
March, 7 2021
Balance you are wrong! Compare this example you have a 15,000lb herd avg .Your neighbor has a 30,000lb herd avg. You hate him.. always thought he was cheating somewhow. Anyway you go to his herd dispersal buy a avg cow there. Now she is your herd. Does she make 30,000m ?..NO reverts to your avg 15,00 OR she gets sick and dies because his management was twice as good as yours!But you still hate him. On the big 4 80% within herd and 20% betwen herds is correct. Take SCS your neighbor has 60,000 Somatic cell count..your herd is 600,000 somatic cell count. Dont'even waste your time breeding for SCS..get new equipment and fire your employees.One of my customers did just that..the latter.. new employees(milkers) now ....low SCS.!
Balance Sheet Guy
March, 7 2021
I am very familiar with the aipl.arsusda publication referenced. Heritability estimates the phenotypic variation in a trait that is due to genetics. Production’s heritability is 20% which means 20% of production variation in Holsteins is explained by genetics the remainder is due to environment. Claiming 80% heritability within herd is just plain wrong. I suspect breeders most opposed to feed efficiency proofs are those who have animals with very negative “feed saved” proofs. I am not a Jersey aficionado-Holsteins have afforded me well.
Ronald Flatness
March, 7 2021
What are efficient cows? Can you just look at them and say she is small,that's one. Or she is a Jersey we know they are efficient? Any examples? How about this cow..mo. made over 33,000 M, 1335F and 1501P at 1yr 11-mo., scored VG(85)@y2yr,55 in tall. Was she efficient,know any better?
Ronald Flatness
March, 7 2021
Balance sheet guy... where do we get Heritability figures from... old college books? No... Google, Lifetime Net Merit 2018....2nd chart down..Trait Parameters..on a diagonal line in color, Heritability. per trait.The top 4 Milk,Fat ,Proten and Type.. 20% betwen herds....80% in your herd. Because they are eassy to see with the human eye and on the test shet. Body Size has high heritability..because you can see and weigh it..so what.
Old Timer
March, 7 2021
Balance sheet guy --you nailed it perfectly-just hope people recognize that your perspective is spot on.
Balance Sheet Guy
March, 6 2021
Need to review heritability %’s. Not nearly that high. May be confusing reliability with heritability. Progress can be made in traits with low heritability when included in a properly constructed index. Best way to make money in genetics is to sell a lot and buy few/none. Of course then you need to constantly develop from within. Holsteins that get PG is a necessity.
Ronald Flatness
March, 6 2021
Couple more for balance sheet guy.Type is also very heritable around 80% in your herd. Doessn't need to be show ring type but it is important. Why are those traits most heritable? Because you can see and easily mesasure them. Again Feed Efficiency..if you think every small cow will milk more effiecently than a big cow..I have a bridge to sell you. Sorry but no Jerseys.
Ronald Flatness
March, 6 2021
Our balance sheet guy is skipping down the road with False information. ONE thing... he is right about is Production....Milk, Fat and Protein is Highly Heritable, 80% in your herd...the rest is not. Re. Feed Efficiency that is just a bold move to sell Jersey semen if you like them... go for it.
Brandon
March, 6 2021
The dairies with balance sheet guy's statistics don't buy genetics, they sell them.
OLDSTER
March, 6 2021
Wow, balance sheet guy, I really find it hard to believe that there are dairymen out there that can make it on $15 milk. We can handle a bad month or 2 here and there, but taking income from another source, and supplementing the cows shouldn't count. Last year the average farm's income from the gov't? 40%. that's not management, its salvation.
Brandon
March, 6 2021
If you want to know what producers are interested in just look at sale reports on Cowbuyer. Kevetta dispersal cows avg much better than the commercial sale cows in Mississippi that were making nice records. Happens all the time.
Balance Sheet Guy
March, 6 2021
Production, Dpr, Pl, health traits and feed efficiency can all be improved simultaneously but the resulting animal will not score excellent in the current arbitrary classification system. Having no understanding of statistics or base changes limits opportunities with genetics. Producers who are profitable at $15 dollars sell 7+ pounds cfp /cow/day with a moderately priced ration, have durable cows who are not “fond of the vet”, have 30+ pg rate and cull rate < 30%.
Ronald Flatness
March, 6 2021
OK Balance sheet guy ..what are those producers that can make money at $15 per cwt..looking for in a bull or bulls?
Balance Sheet Guy
March, 6 2021
Dairy producers who can make money at $15/cwt aren’t interested in what traditional registered breeders offer. Traditional buyers of registered animals can’t make money at $15 (or 18 or 20) so there is no money to support the market.
Old Timer
March, 6 2021
The question is about “income” from registered cattle sales and should have asked about “net income”? Some can’t distinguish between net and gross until after their dispersal? Reminds me of the old story about the depression era farmer that sent a big flock of sheep to the market then got a bill in the mail for the shipping cost instead of a check. The old farmer was bragging about how many sheep he had sold then, someone said “you old fool you lost money on your sheep”. Yea the old farmer said but, look at all the business it did.
Ronald Flatness
March, 5 2021
Nice positve commenmnts Chuck. Regarding Net Merit it has LONG been a good useful tool. However now more added beef traits with low heritability. It seems like something for new employees to work on.There are other important moneymaking ...traits that are NOT in the Net Merit formula, such as A2A2, Polled and Red. Also anyone that has interest improving their herds type... must pay attention to the linear traits.Now with the increased emphasis on Feed efficiency and smaller Body size, linear traits have greatly declined and your herd will suffer as well. If you want Jerseys just buy them.
OLDSTER
March, 5 2021
Good morning, Chuck. Unhappy $15.75 to all of us. Are there many Reg. cattle that are not % cattle? My grandpa built his herd on the blemished..black in the switch, too white, black bellies, that the big boys couldn't register. When I bought my 1st reg., it was not with my dad.s blessing.BTW, I have my breeding on 4 continents.. granted I only sold 2 for over $50,000. The average cow gets better every day, and just pull hair to find out who she is. Registering % cattle is what soured me.
chuck
March, 4 2021
Gee OLDSTER, grades?? Please don't tell the long time reputable breeders that purchased a very nice 2yr old a few months ago here for a significant 5 figure price or the astute, highly successful dairyman that saw an opportunity to upgrade his herd at affordable prices and has bought 80 head here over the last 3 years with one of them recently named All-American. About 10 years ago a knowledgeble, reputable sale manager tried hard to book a dispersal here and said matter of factly 'you'll have a million dollar sale'. Never milked more than 80 here. Today they are just as good, pedigrees deeper and value considerably less, but definitely not grade price yet. Very unfortunate that you have bred for 50 years and not one of your animals has enough extra value to justify the nominal cost of a years membership.
Brandon
March, 4 2021
I don't care about conventions, don't have any interest in cruises but I do like good cows. I make more selling them privately than I ever have in sales. I more than pay for the association programs and registration expenses with the modest genetic sales mostly to local guys who still appreciate good cattle. If you want to succeed you have to accept a certain amount of change/progress. I'm going to milk cows anyway, so why not make a little extra and enjoy having better animals.
OLDSTER
March, 4 2021
Its morning, CHUCK, AND YOUR COWS ARE GRADES!! 50 years ago I bought my 1st registered for 1 reason, COMMODERIE. The people side of the industry was just as important as the cow side. Registered meant EXCITEMENT. Shows, conventions, sales, cruises, farm visits. That has been hurting for awhile, and COVID has nailed the coffin shut, IMHO. I noticed that my wife sent in our annual breed assoc. dues again this year. We are all creatures of habit, but what a waste.
chuck
March, 3 2021
If I were giving advice to someone in the dairy business, I would tell them they need to be able to pay the bills on the commodities they sell: milk, meat and perhaps cash crops. Registered Holsteins are largely a commodity. Gone are the days of generating significant income over commercial cattle. I have to recognize that had my father not invested in registered Holsteins 50 years ago, we would not be dairying today. If I woke up tomorrow and the herd was grades, I would be planning my exit. Registered Holsteins have fueled our interest in dairingy and many others. In recent days a world renowned breeder and his 15 yr old grandson visited. The interest and enthusiasm for breeding by the youngster was inspiring. The clouds over the industry in recent years have mostly been on the dark side. It takes an optimistic person to be able to see the silver lining many days.
Brandon
March, 3 2021
Agree with John C. We need the diversity, that is where we can still make a profit by creating something valuable and different ,polled, A2A2, red, high DPR. Doesn't have to win index race to be profitable. No matter the breed, milk and fertility do not positively correlate. DPR can be improved without major type sacrifices and we are producing plenty of milk already. The big "homerun" animals for avg breeders are mostly gone but it is still possible to profit from flushwork, especially if you consider the improvements in efficiency to the milking herd.
Ronald Flatness
March, 3 2021
John C. made some very good points...the importance of Milk.Fat,Protein and Type proofs..all 80% heritable in your herd! But then at the end he embraces new traits in Net Merit that are closer to his ideas to breed for beef.like...Feed Efficeincy...smaller size. Also DPR is very VITAL to Beef...but in Dairy has a Neg effect on milke yields.Look at bulls on Dairybulls.com..that are - 3,000 PDM,many very high DPR. Bulls +3,000 PD milk ALL minus on DPR.
Oldster
March, 3 2021
YEPP, sorry for cutting the explanation short. If you are not the farmer selling the Jersey/stein to beef, then it won't hurt you. Beef buyers want meat, not hide and bones, making a small, and especially thin cow worth 1/3 of a holstein sized cow. In our locale, beef crosses have lost favor with the feedlots, they finish too slow. Its not pretty out there.
John Conrad
March, 3 2021
Worthwhile discussion albeit somewhat frustrating. I believe there is still money to be made merchandising genetics but it is a very different ballgame from a few years ago. We have gotten quite a few bulls into studs by being part of syndicates where we can share the cost of embryos and also the profits (if there are any.) There will always be a market for genetically superior cattle as long as we milk cows. Several things right now are contributing to the degree of difficulty. First, emphasis on prediction over performance. I use proofs, genomics, and genetic predictions. They don't make me any money. Pounds of milk, fat, protein and actual conformation is what I sell. When we value prediction over performance we disenfranchise the many dairymen who have profitable animals to sell and unfairly devalue the female part of the dairy population. Allowing bull studs to own females, to market only sexed semen from their top bulls, and equating TPI to gTPI, has created a monopoly for bull studs that has really hurt the average seed stock producer. Breeding the bottom third of dairy herds to beef bulls will help the industry as we don't need more cows just better cows. Also we should all support every different approach that markets dairy cattle--Net Merit, type, performance, etc. Diversity keeps the industry healthy.
Old Doc
March, 3 2021
We all used to make money selling the surplus and/or merchandising the better end. Now glut of surplus milk and females LOW milk price No margin NO profit. We all like good cows Shows are for the hobbyist and the only ones making money are the fitters. If you want to be in business be a business person! Dont be afraid to make mostly black calves Buy your replacements. If shows are your recreation Go for it!
Yepp!
March, 3 2021
Oldster, "The popularity of Jersey/ jersey/holstein crosses has added to the butterfat surplus, but depleted your beef check tremendously." And how does people switching to Jersey, and Jersey-Holstein cross lowers my beef check??
glenp
March, 2 2021
Just Sayin...I'm in business aren't I? That should answer your question. Could I make more money in another venture? Probably. Would the emotional well being be as great in another venture? Probably not. As far as getting milk picked up...I belong to a hauling co-op. I hear how the large dairy operations will be the only farms left...Don't know about that in our area. I live in Central PA. The land base in most of PA makes it extremely difficult for a mega dairy operation. Off the top of my head, I believe the largest dairy farm within a 2 hour drive from me in any direction milks about 3500 cows
Oldster
March, 2 2021
Lets try this again; the 'cloud' ate it last hour! glenp, I'm glad that you can be doing what you are doing. Please carry on. But I do think that you should be aware of the fact that there are many areas in the lower 48 that don't have the ability to get that small amount of milk picked up! You can call it cruel, anti-American, a crock of cow pucky, but it isn't going to get better, IMHO. It looks like its "pick on the old guy" this week...so don't be bashful, I'll handle it!!
Everything Ends
March, 2 2021
Everything ends, jobs, school, lives, everything ends. The time when you could buy a heifer for $3,000 to $5,000 from a well known cow family, calve her in and if she went VG and made a good milk record, you could market from her. Choice of flushes, embryos, daughters, that time has ended long ago. You may find an example here or there, but for many reg. breeders, which is what the question ask, depending on a second income from the sale of reg. cattle, embryos or bulls for substantial income (or more importantly income with a profit) has ended.
Just Sayin
March, 2 2021
The real question, glenp, is if there was any profit on those 35 head. Let's say they brought in 50K, which if you did, congratulations...but what did it cost to raise those 35? That's the essence of this conversation, otherwise we might as well be raising steers to run our feed thru.
Bottom Line
March, 2 2021
The bottom line is that from a financial perspective, one can seldom get a return on investment from ET work, especially IVF. The only hope I can see is to breed cows that have high enough type and production to be marketable, and also have good enough genetics for fertility to get them pregnant with sexed semen while producing a lot of CFP per day. That would seem to be the least expensive way of getting heifer calves from your best cows and from the top bulls. Those are the kind of genetics that will set you apart from the rest because the rest are still hell bent on using high type bulls that sire fancy cows with miserable fertility.
glenp
March, 2 2021
You all can argue about whether certain things are possible or not...I'll just do it. We have 50-55 cows at any time. This year we will sell probably 35 head of females and males. Will we reach 30% of milk income? Probably not. I am sure we will be over 20%
Barb
March, 2 2021
Amen, Oldster!!Enjoying all these comments so much!!
Oldster
March, 2 2021
Good morning, TONY!! Your comment, "I never lost money breeding a good cow" leads me to ask 2 questions. 1,did you always MAKE money breeding a good cow, and 2, what is your definition of a GOOD cow? In light of $15 milk, and no shows to go to, what used to work may no longer work. We are rapidly heading to a handful of processors of milk from 10,000 dairies. Not a pretty sight, just reality.
Reality
March, 1 2021
Wonderful question. Cost a lot to make Embryos. Costs a lot to feed recips. Costs a lot to raise calves. Costs a lot to milk cows. Inputs are high. 15$ milk. Great ones are worth great money. Good ones are worth milk cow price. Milk cows are worth a little over beef. Beef is being grown in a lab. Man idk
Pam
March, 1 2021
NO, The Reg Breeder is dead. Genomics, sexed semen, greedy so called co-ops, and a general trend in the greater public that animal agriculture is wrong, and maybe evil, a planet killer. Where are those solar panels I need to install?
Tony Whitehead
March, 1 2021
I've never lost money breeding a good cow.
Old Timer
March, 1 2021
While there are still a few breeders who can profit from marketing dairy genetics, the number has dropped dramatically over the last 20 years. For the most part, the purebred dairy business can be best described as a recreational endeavor and there is certainly nothing wrong with recreation.
Just Sayin
March, 1 2021
This is a fun conversation, as there are obviously still plenty of people that believe that they're smart enough to still breed cattle that will "save the farm"...don't believe me!? There are bull studs that only sell semen from bulls who's only redeeming quality is for the show ring! Or even funnier, studs that sell semen from bulls that aren't even genomic tested, because testing is evil or something!?
Rear View Mirror
March, 1 2021
I think the question can be answered by a simple "No".
Stockman
March, 1 2021
Those days are long behind us. It costs more to take care of them than they are worth. You could make a profit in the past selling cattle or embryos now you have to sell them just to pay for the expense on rest of them
Josh
March, 1 2021
I think it is still possible for a substantial amount of your income to come from the sale of reg. Live cattle, embryos, bulls and such like. My observation is that those who make it are the breeders who develop a “brand”. For instance if you say the name Jacobs, you mind immediately goes to beautiful show cows competing at the highest level. If you say the name Seimers, you think of good long-lasting, trouble free cows with high production.
Barbwire
March, 1 2021
As a registered Holstein breeder for many years with a very small herd I was able to sell privately and in state sales. The money from the sale of my registered Holsteins put a new roof on my barn, enabled me to add some comfort stalls, made payments on new machinery, even allowed me to buy some of the high priced Bootmaker and Valiant semen years ago to further try to improve my herd. If I had my herd now those things would not be affordable.
Oldster
March, 1 2021
There is always opportunity, BUT...not only are papered cattle mostly worthless, {IMHO you can thank % cattle for that}, but any heifer isn't worth raising today. The popularity of Jersey/ jersey/holstein crosses has added to the butterfat surplus, but depleted your beef check tremendously. Just because you can produce more doesn't mean you should, that includes milk and heifers.
Seasoned Holstein Breeder
February, 28 2021
For many years I was able to generate nearly half my income from the sale of Reg. Holsteins, embryos and a few bulls to A.I. with the other half from milk sales. But since about 2008 that has changed. In my opinion IVF, genomics and sexed semen have changed that. It seems if your animals don't have a high GTPI number, they might as well be grades. The days of a VG 2 year old being worth something are gone, unless she will show, if not she might as well be grade. I think the opportunity for a farmer/breeder to earn substantial income from the sale of reg. cattle or embryos are gone. But they were good while it lasted.